Season 2 - Oh Ye of Little Faith

Has the past year kicked your butt? Join the club. From funerals and family struggles to friendship loss and letdown, how do you cope when hope is distant? Why don't guys talk about "self-love"? This honest conversation captures uncomfortable truths about faith, healing, and wholeness as Daryl and Adrian share from the heart. Faith never grants immunity from hurt but it can help us find restoration when we need it most.

Unfollow - Ye of Little Faith


Daryl: What's up AP. We are back episode four and I actually think the last couple have been our best episodes yet.

Adrian: You might be slightly biased, but I know, I agree. I think we've been talking right, just that ability to share. You know, emotions and kind of share our journey has been great. And I even listened back.

I mean, this might sound weird. It was like looking at your picture of yourself saying, man, I'm good looking. But I listened back to our podcasts to learn from what our discussion was because. For audience doesn't know, like we, we kind of plan out, Hey, what we're going to the theme high level, but our conversations aren't very scripted at all.

So this is kind of us just kind of, you know, some friends catching up and kind of sharing where we are. So yeah, this is very much a stream of consciousness as well. So sometimes I don't remember what we talked about in terms of like, oh, that was valuable. And so yeah, any nuggets or. Are, you know, it's his grace and all the good stuff comes from me.

Of course, I I've. I've heard that from several sources. So the same, [00:01:00]

Daryl: your mom and your wife do not count as sources.

Adrian: Dang it. You had to call me that way

Daryl: that, Hey, real quick. What would have people ask you about in these last couple of weeks?

Adrian: No most have been more congratulatory in terms of, Hey, I appreciate what you guys are talking about.

I think, you know, when we started unfollow, you know, over a year ago, you know, our original kind of mission was the dig into some of the things that we need to let go. And some of the failures we had and to be transparent, and I think most of the feedback I've gotten her to questions or. I appreciate that.

Talk about that. Cause you know, most people aren't in a position to really share at that level not publicly. And so, yeah, I think, you know, I've gotten questions on money as well. So I think one of our upcoming episodes we might dig into, let's talk about the financial kind of composition of like, you know, how's that look like specifics on like, you know, what platform do you use?

And wish, [00:02:00] how do you invest in this? How do you actually pay a bill? And like, how do you plan this? I I've gotten a ton of questions about the financial realities of where we are, but also appreciation for the transparency.

Daryl: Good. I can't wait to hear some of your perspective on that. Cause I think you and I have a very similar opinion on personal debt, but I think we may have a very different opinion on business debt.

And so that should be pretty familiar. Yeah. Oh yeah.

Adrian: Yeah. I, I, I couldn't step into your life. Balance sheet at all. I, I would, yeah, I'd go crazy. Like it it'd be. Yeah. Yeah.

Daryl: I fit my morning. Yeah. Paying bills this morning on our development construction company. And I'm looking at the numbers and. We signed off on $1.8 million yesterday.

And to some people that's not a big project to some people that's a huge project. Right. So we're somewhere in the middle right now. And if I'm honest with you, like, there are times when I forget where we came from, where [00:03:00] $35,000 was a big project. But then I also meet on a weekly basis with guys who, you know, there are projects that are five or $6 million.

At a starting point acquisition cost. Right. And so, you know, it's all zeros, it's all zeros. Yeah. I love it. I love it. All right. So this episode, you wanted to go into faith and I think kind of building off of what you just said about things that are. Conversationally transparent. Maybe we're more open about it than we were in the past.

I think this is something that you have specifically wanted to lean into. So like, I want to give you kind of the lead on this and let you take a run with it and I'll fill in some of the blanks or add some color.

Adrian: Yeah, that's great. I think, you know, Or is it a topic that I'm becoming more appreciative of?

I think during this time of call it, my sabbatical solitude at this time of kind of some stillness, you know, a step out of the rat race. And, you know, it's like, especially for men, you know, we don't talk about wholeness and healing a [00:04:00] lot and. Most of the times when we talk about our faith journey, oftentimes it's through the lens of theology.

What I know authority like my hierarchy, you know, what's my role in the organization. We almost take what we do well corporately or organizationally, and we apply that to some of, you know, our, our faith journey and, you know, throughout scripture and throughout the life of Jesus captured in the gospel.

You know, we see this, we see the cycle of, of healing, of restoration, of things that we just don't talk about as dudes. But, you know, we don't really share that. So yeah, I think I wanted to just have a candid conversation, man, about, you know, healing and faith and like, what does that look like practically?

You know, we're all in the middle, still of a global pending. You know, over, you know, I think latest is what four and a half million deaths you know, we're, we're, we're surrounded by uncertainty. There are jobs that are never coming back every week, right? Whether it's [00:05:00] Afghanistan, it's Haiti, it's right here in our own communities.

We're surrounded by things that seem insurmountable. And a lot of us are just having almost.

Daryl: Bad news

Adrian: fatigue, like, yeah. You know, and, and so we're trying to keep going, but you know, and one of the questions I got from a brother, this is probably like three months ago. And this is what triggered this idea for this podcast was he sat down, you know, was like, dude, what's your emotional and mental wellbeing regimen.

Like what are you doing to stay emotionally fit and heal yourself? Any, I think I made up an answer in the interim. I was like, I guess I do those things, but man, like kind of blew my mind. And so, you know, so yeah. I want to talk about, let's talk about faith. What does faith mean to us? Like practically, but they don't want it.

Let's talk about kind of where you are, what, where I'm at and kind of how you know, this last two years has been tough. You know, we've got some battle scars and some [00:06:00] arrows we're still trying to take out, but it's also probably changed how we think about how we'll lead our definition of church. Our definition of, of you know, of, of, of service and faith has probably been tested, but also, you know, I think change in some barriers.

Daryl: Have you been able to separate yourself separate specifically your faith from some of the cultural upheaval, some of the people from COVID some of the upheaval from like changing social dynamics, like how have you separated your faith from those things? And I would ask you, has your faith kept you moving through those things?

Adrian: Yeah, that's a good question. I think I'd like to say yes. I'd like to say my faith has been kind of an anchor so that no matter what's happening on the surface or an atmosphere that I've stayed anchored to, you know, a belief system of belief in a real God in our relationship as well, but I guess as I'm learning and maturing, you know, I think.[00:07:00]

Has definitely been testing. There are days, you know, I don't, I don't want to talk to God. Like I don't want to hear from God or I didn't, you know, or I want justice or. You know, I want retribution for something that's going on in the world, you know, and you know, I I've, when I sit down and think about, okay, what does faith to me?

Right. Faith is just confidence in what I can't see. I can't, no, I can't do. I can't understand that. And so faith for me always keeps me in a position where I'm dependent. And so I say most of what I've done over the past year, year and a half has been trying to be indigenous. Of God or independent of an organization or a human being, et cetera.

And so I say, I think my faith has probably, probably kept me away from some areas where I didn't want to give things to. To God, I, I kind of wanted to hoard them for myself out of my own independence. And so, yeah, I think I've struggled. I think with [00:08:00] a real faith, not the faith of like, I'm telling you about a scripture, I'm doing church, the faith of like, how am I actually spending time with God?

And how does that show up in how I treat other people? And you see other people who use the word Christian, do other things that are decidedly non-Christian it makes you want to know. Like R is our faith the same. And you know, it reinforces my devotion to God, but it also reinforces some areas where I probably need to separate.

From, you know, church with a lowercase C like the church and where we are not the same. So yeah. It's kind of been

Daryl: a winding road. Yeah. I think for me, I get angry easily based on my immigrant type. You would know that about me as an AA. Right? Like anger's the first thing I go to. And so it really is a struggle sometimes for your faith and anger to intersect.

Yeah. I feel like faith is [00:09:00] this common. Thing for me where my belief and my faith gives me hope. It gives me optimism. You know, it's almost like the entrepreneurial side of my spirit, if that makes sense. That's good. Yeah. When I see and feel and experience so much of what's happening in our world. In these last two years, I find myself quickly moving to anger and that's not necessarily the healthiest spot to be in.

Right. And so I think for me, my faith has helped to resuscitate. It's in these moments where I know almost with like a third eye that I am, off-kilter like, I am leaning far too much into either my own strength or my own anger or my own human response that I have to find that time to meditate, to pray, to come back to, okay, what is my purpose here?

What are we really doing? And then go back to having like that optimism and hope about, you know, not only what bringing the kingdom of heaven to earth. [00:10:00] But also just like tomorrow, right? Like, okay. Tomorrow will be better. Tomorrow will be better. In the church that I grew up in, it was a lot about evacuating, right?

Like it was a lot about like, yo, this life sucks, but one day it's going to be better and we're all going to get down.

Adrian: Jesus come quick. I'm out. Yeah. Yeah. We used

Daryl: to have these like watch night services, you know, and I think I had this baggage of man, God is going to come back before I get to do X. You know, insert whatever that was, right.

Like, don't come back before I get married. Don't come back before I get to see this to do that or whatever. And so I think I've always kind of had this built-in fearful baggage of Christ's return because I didn't necessarily know how to read the scriptures correctly. And also didn't have anybody helping me to interpret them correctly.

And so now, you know, as a 41 year old adult, I'm responsible for. And as I read the word, I [00:11:00] find very different words in those same scriptures, right. As interpreted through the correct lens. And so I'm not afraid of God's return tomorrow in the same way. Right? Like my job is to bring the kingdom of heaven to earth.

And I think that has informed my behavior. And in those moments where I get angry in those moments where I can. Look past what's happening today. I say to myself like, Hey, your job is to bring the kingdom of heaven to earth, our father, which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come right. That will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

And so in that I have hoped for the next day and that I have hope for the next project or the next person that I meet, you know, because I think it's been so easy to lose hope in the last two years. That's

Adrian: good. Yeah. I mean, if I'm being honest, I'm probably like you where I'm getting angry. I get upset.

And I probably, you know, I probably respond to people in ways that, [00:12:00] Hey, is that the way you, you know, you believe what you believe then your behavior would reflect something. But, you know, I think what I'm learning is that I think an appreciation from a, you know, faith, isn't like a single file line. Like, Hey, here's this one way to think and act about God like faith, this reason and intuition, faith.

Science is creativity. It's art. Like the way God operates is so much bigger than what my, you know, little, you know, human brain can conceive. And so all the time, the things that I demonstrate my faith with, they undermine my actual faith, you know? I want to be in control. I, Hey, here's the law, here's the role.

You're doing it wrong. I'm doing it right. Right. I want to be strong, only perceived as the guy that has the answers. I want clarity. I want pre assurance, you know, I want a biblical answer for things that, you know, don't, aren't really addressed in the Bible. They don't have much cultural context. Right.

And, or, Hey, there's not just one way to think about this. And so, [00:13:00] you know, I think I'm learning faith for me this, during this. Learning to let go of certainty and be okay within bok challenging my own convictions. You know, it's like, I don't own faith. I don't own the sky above my house. Like I want my half, I don't know.

But so it's like, it can move, it can grow, it can form. And it's okay if somebody looks at it and sees a different shape in the cloud, above my house. And I'm, I'm not defensive about. Well, your version of faith is so different from mine. Let's let's argue. Okay. You know, I can love you. And so, yeah, I think for me that big journey has, has been part of that, of that evolving, you know, way of how God sees me, but how I see God.

And, you know, I think I want to ask you, like, before we talk about kind of healing, you know, so faith kind of, what is our definition? It's got to you, Daryl man. Aye. How's your heart? How's your, how's your life? [00:14:00] Spiritually emotional fuel tank, man. Like, heck are you doing

Daryl: man? How's your heart. That is such a church question of you.

Adrian: Your professional here.

Daryl: You have to say either you're a professional counselor or you're the leader of my youth group. I can't tell which one it is. Right. I think CS Lewis would describe heart as chest, right? I think in the abolition of man he describes men without a chest. And what that means is men without a soul or men without heart.

So I would tell you that my spirit in this moment is. Joyful again, right in my, in this moment, my spirit is it's happy. It's it's light. But man, for the last, probably two years, it has been a challenge to stay in that spot. Right. You know, between Johanna battling cancer in between all of the things that we've had to handle just as parents.

Then on top of that, you [00:15:00] factor in people's behavior around us, whether that's family. People that have been friends and then factor into all of that, you know, the behavior, even within my own church and things that have happened there. And so I would tell you that it's been hard to be light if that makes sense, like free and light as Christ speaks about in Matthew.

But I will tell you that on the other side of it, and I do, I do feel light. I do feel that. I would tell you that my faith is probably more rounded. And by that, I mean, like it's not square. It's not a box. If you are a visual learner like me, you can imagine a square with rounded edges instead, you know, something that doesn't cut you or others, something that's easy to climb on something that's easy to build on, you know, whereas It's not like stepping on a sharp Lego anymore.

Yeah. My faith feels good. My faith feels like it informs my decision making on daily basis. We talked about that last week on how, you know, I feel like I heard the word. Making sure all those around me have what [00:16:00] they need like that. All of that's informed by my faith and my faith still is that there is a loving God that created me and I was good at creation.

I wasn't evil at creation and that his son Christ has a very specific way that we're supposed to do. And it is very nuanced. It's always a third way, right? It's always this way of looking at things and, and viewing them or, or acting differently than either empire would have us do, like, you know, or money would have us do.

And so what I would say today is that my faith feels real. It feels like mine. There's a Hindu thought that says for you to find healing, you have to come back to your faith or. And it's this idea that like wherever you started and maybe there was harm that happened along your path, you have to go back to that and find healing in that before you [00:17:00] can be made whole again.

And so I would say for me in the last two years is really just about going back and kind of repairing some of those things that have been damaged or hurt. Remember, maybe that I was angry about and then just kind of moving forward and You know, Proverbs says that a man that lets an offense roll off of him as wise.

So I think that's probably been the best way to describe my last year. I haven't

Adrian: mastered that one at all yet. Like I'm trying to at least get an awareness of it, but yeah, that's a, that's a tough one. I found I can just shut down my social media, Twitter and Facebook off my phone. So hopefully I'll be a little better.

That's not in Proverbs. Maybe there's Hey, delete apps on the phone to increase fees.

Daryl: Yeah. What about you, man? Where are you? Where's your faith at right now?

Adrian: No two words have really been on probably, you know, I'm ahead for the past few months has been kind of grief and gratitude. Grief, man.

I've been to way too many funerals over the past year. I've had [00:18:00] way too many coworkers pass away. Some expecting some not I mean, I was at a funeral a week ago from a dear friend, went to college with Her father passed away almost a year. Hmm right after her brother passed away and I've been another one of my high school buddies.

His brother died from COVID. My aunt died in February and so it's like, you know, and all these, all this stuff, you feel this grief, you feel this loss of relationship. Person there that, you know, you won't interact with and all the time. Cause the last few funerals I've been to, there are people I know I'm there to support someone.

So gosh, being kind of a witness to, you know, you see the love of family had and you know, you can kind of project, you know, what's it going to be like when I'm in that casket? You know? So that's part there's grief. I found beauty in the grief, you know, in terms of like, the grief means that, you know, there was something worth [00:19:00] missing.

There was something there that meant. You know, you don't remember things that don't matter, right? You wouldn't have a funeral for a person. It wouldn't be a ceremony for something didn't matter. So kind of learning, not to run from it, but to know that that's the reality, but then I think, I think they're kind of, it's the Seesaw of like grief and loss also makes you so grateful for life, your family and other day your health, like, so yeah, so I hold those tight, you know, Part of that kind of rollercoaster for me for at least the past couple of months has been like, and I'm so grateful.

But also know that, you know, that that loss is always there and that, you know, God can be good through both of those. And even as we were in this season of languish, Pandemic still raging people are still passing away. And, you know, I think, you know, probably earlier this year I was in a funky spot, man.

COVID kicked my butt just from, you know, all of the stuff that's going on, loss job, like [00:20:00] uncertainty in terms of, I don't want to stay, do I want to go opportunities? Just trying to make sure my kids are safe and healthy. Yeah. I remember, you know, this therapist came across a video online. His therapist said Bots are not truth until truth becomes thoughts.

Thoughts are not truth until truth becomes thoughts. And then she asks like, what are the things that you're rehearsing that somebody told you that aren't true. That I just made a list of like all these things that I, who told me that, or why do I assume I need to do that now? Or why? Like, it was like, I don't know if.

Like I've adopted so many expectations or created my own strings that I've attached to my work too. And so for me, it was just that kind of this scrubbing process of like, man, what thoughts am I holding on to that? Aren't true. And really just going back to, you know, what did Jesus say, but this, what does the Bible like going back to really the foundations of, of really, what do I believe in why.

And this, the simplifying. [00:21:00] Right. And so you can fast forward a few months later and you see me now, like, because like, I am not employed by a corporation I've gotten feedback. I don't know if it's criticism or, you know, critique on, Hey, how involved are you? And you know, what would be the formal church?

And, you know, and you know, I think everyone might have an expectation of what I should or shouldn't be doing at the end of the day. I think where my faith journey has led me is that, you know, my heart is becoming just like centered on like, you know, this wholeness time with your family and just trying to just, you know, let the things I can't control go because I, even, when I was striving to control him, it didn't work.

So like what makes me think that I I'll ever have had that control. So, yeah. Grief, gratitude. It's kind of truth, man. That's

Daryl: feel grief and gratitude at the exact same time. Oh,

Adrian: I think so. You know, I I think about my aunt Carol, she passed [00:22:00] away earlier this year and I remember, you know, sitting at her, sitting at her funeral.

And you're just sad. Right. You're experiencing like all these emotions of loss and you're experiencing other people's loss. Right. So then you're sad about other people being sad. And you have grief about other people's grief. And then, so those, you hold that grief so tight, you know, I think grief is the process of, of going through that as well, but I always found ease for me, you know,

Daryl: fem funerals

Adrian: quickly turn into family reunions.

That same hour a day. Like, oh, I'm so grateful that I have you. Or even the funeral I was with last week, I was like, there's grief, but then they were grateful to be together and you see the love. So I think there is. Kind of this parallel path of this extreme loss and sadness for an inevitability, but also this extreme contentment in this compassion that we still get to [00:23:00] be together.

And I guess I gotta believe that's how God feels about us, right. You know, sin breaks his heart. I've got to believe that he, he grieves for us cause he wants more better for us when, when things go wrong, you know, he has compassion his heart breaks when he sees things that are wrong. But you know, I, I got to believe that, you know, He said his son has a solution for that to kind of sit among us and with us.

So I think so, but I don't know.

Daryl: I went to a funeral at the end of the spring, a dear friend of mine lost his brother to a sudden heart attack at the age of 30. It's crazy. Like he passed away in just a few seconds. He was gone and we basically shut down our life on a Saturday to go to this funeral.

And I think that was the reminder for me is that funerals are a finality, right? Like funerals bring things to a close. And not only is this person like a super dear friend of mine, [00:24:00] but it was just a reminder that like life shuts down for day. Like our lives. It didn't matter what we were doing that day.

Not only is my friend, but also just as the fact that it's a funeral, like my life shuts down for this and I don't care about anything else. Like I'm here. Right. And it was one of those like movie type of funeral days where it was pouring the rain. We're standing out at the grave side with black umbrella.

It's, it's not a happy ending to a story, right? Like where this young man has passed away suddenly. And it was just a really vivid reminder to me, man, that like life is really, really short. And obviously we're on the back end of, you know, Johanna facing down cancer Emmanuel's birth which was a choice, like all of these things.

It just, I dunno, it just gave me this visual picture of man death is. It's such a final thing for us as human beings, but I know, and I believe that our souls have an existence after [00:25:00] this. And so it really brought into like adult questioning of like, well, what is heaven? Like what do you believe about heaven?

What do you believe about hill? What do you believe about afterlife at 41? Right. These questions that like came all back up again. And so I've probably spent the last six months kind of even revisiting some of that, like that funeral in that death have caused me to go back and kind of revisit to your point, my faith, my belief, what is my belief about my afterlife?

You know, cause I grew up in a Christian tradition that it was black and white. It wasn't really questioned what it was. Right. And so now, like I went back and kind of re studied that for myself and it's just. To your point healing, but also like it's mine. I own that. That's what I believe now.

Adrian: Yeah.

Have you had anything, you know, I think happened. Did you want to share after hours podcast? You know, like past, like what do you think you could be [00:26:00] healing from, right? Like what are those scars or scabs where, you know what, like any workout and there ain't no pretty bow on this thing.

Daryl: Yeah. Like, I'll give you the 50,000 foot version.

I stepped down as an elder from our church in February. And we stepped away from our church at the same time. It wasn't an easy decision, but it wasn't easy decision if that makes sense. And it came on the heels of going through cancer with Joe for 18 months and COVID and all that kinda stuff.

So it all kind of gets lumped together. And there was a lot of hurt there. Right. There were lies told people were positioned or manipulate. Basically, like I had questioned some things earlier in the year about our behaviors with church. And it was said that that wasn't a catalyst, but in the end, you know, I didn't see certain people in my house for 18 months during COVID during cancer.

And then my faith was questioned and it really brought a lot of things into light. Right. Where if leadership within my church was questioning my [00:27:00] faith after watching me walk through. But we had to face down in the last 18 months, right. That they clearly were not around or available, you know, as we went through that struggle and then to lie and try to manipulate us like acid.

And that we're good. And then I also watched our behavior, you know, as a, as a congregation, during that period. And it wasn't okay. It was leadership behavior that wasn't okay during that. And, you know, kind of brought that to light. Without going into too many of the messy details. I just said after 20 years, like this, isn't the place for it.

After 20 years of volunteering after 20 years of giving our finances and our time never taking a dime from the church, we just said, Hey, this isn't the right space for us. So we have been doing church at home. We've been trying to tell our kids like, Hey, there's lessons to be learned here. I've been reading on my own and kind of surrounding myself with guys who.

Continue to push and sharpen, right? So I'm not floating out there on an island by myself. And we've got to pick a spot here in the next season of life at [00:28:00] some point, right. We feel like operates like the local church. Good. But yeah, like it's, it's not necessarily been a fun, a fun thing to go through.

But it is, has been a good thing for me to go through as a healthy adult. That's been through a lot of change and, and you'd say trauma, because I think I'm very clear headed about what is okay. And what's not okay. And I'm also very open to God. Not black and white, you know, like there, there are truths that I believe in 100%, but I also don't believe that we can take a look at the scripture and say, okay, here is a God that allegedly created the world in seven days.

And. Absolutely know everything there is to know about him. And here's the right answers for these things. Right. What, what I've come to know is that he's big and he's beautiful and he's nuanced. And he brings so much color and life to things and mystery and mystery can be a really beautiful thing that can actually [00:29:00] increase your faith as opposed to limit it.

And I think back to your point earlier, that's not what we want. We want everything in a, in a bow tied up, so it's me versus them. So it's us our way, or you're going to hell. And so, yeah, man, it's been a wild ride and. Year on our, you know, in our church, faith, you know, community kind of thing. But I would say at the end of it, we're doing great and we're moving forward and we're, we're still growing.

Adrian: Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I think That healing journey. It's like healing, isn't linear right there. Like, it's this, you know, it's just this kind of this journey. It's like things, you know now and things you didn't know. And, and kinda sometimes that gets messy. Sometimes healing is a collision with truth, but sometimes it's just this process of waiting and kind of going through some of those things together.


Daryl: Wow. Yeah. And I think, you know, you and I [00:30:00] talked in the last couple of episodes about leaving your job well, yeah, yeah. That is a very different type of leaving and I don't necessarily have anything inspirational to give you other than like, it's just a different kind of leaving and I, I don't have the right answer for it, but I just know it's a different type of leaving.

And I think Henry cloud and necessary endings says there's a difference in divorce and graduation. Yeah. And so I have looked, I have looked at this season as a season of graduation. It's good,

Adrian: man. It's good.

Daryl: It's been good. Well, in the fall, we're getting ready to start up some community, again, like in the fall, we're getting ready to start and discussion groups about the word.

We're diving into. Topics that are uncomfortable for people. Johanna has been a part of, Johanna's been a part of an ongoing community group of people who have kind of went through some similar things that [00:31:00] we have within our own community. And so they kind of have a shared. Support system, if that makes sense.

And also like, are willing to tackle some of those uncomfortable conversations that the quote unquote, traditional evangelical church in the south has not been, been willing to tackle or care for people, quite frankly. So yeah man, it's going to be good for us to move them forward. It's forced us to do.

But I hope for our children too. It's good. Moving forward as well. Yeah, it's good. Yeah. I think one of the biggest concerns for me moving forward was like, oh, well, what about our kids? And where are they going to go for children's programming and all that kind of stuff? Well, a big part of that falls to me and a big part of that falls to like, how do we inform them and teach them?

And the ways that they treat people in the way that they care for you for people, there's literally a box at our door right now that says donations and it's donations for other people. Right? It's until, again, until everyone around us has what they need. And our kids are responsible for putting toys in there [00:32:00] right now.

I think, man, we're going to be just fine. And our kids are going to be just fine even without Awanas and our crowns and get us to heaven and yeah. And fear of a on an oncoming rapture, every new year's I think we're going to be just fine. So good, man.

Adrian: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think our healing I'd say healing that we, you know, we're still members of our church, but I'd say, you know, we've definitely have had.

Conversations with people who have left our church and maybe members who are on the fence. Right. And I think, you know, for those listeners who aren't like kinda, you know, super plugged in to, you know, the state of the American church, but there is a, it was a pretty, I think the political, racial and the social.

Reckoning intentions you know, something that sits right there at the intersection that has been church. Right. And, and, you know, it's groups of people, right. You know, the church has pretty much a hospital, [00:33:00] right? So you imagine people bringing all that baggage from all that stuff and trying to like figure out how to do life together and worship God together.

But unless you let go of some of those things on the outside, Yeah, it gets pretty ugly and messy. And so, you know, our church, right. There are relationships I've had that, you know, we don't have anymore. You know, there, there are ways that we've been probably criticize or critique for, you know, speaking.

And I think a part of our, you know, I think product part of our journey, I'd say killing, you know, we haven't necessarily left our church, but it's been kind of this question of, okay, well, what is the church? Right? What does that period like? It's more than just the building, right? I think the church capitals.

I fallen in love with that. I fall in love with the idea of community and service and like, you know, doing for others and generosity and giving. I probably fall down a little out of love with church lowercase C in [00:34:00] terms of some of the, the rules and the people. And, you know, like, you know, what I found for me is anytime I'm having to.

Pitch for approval, permission or acceptance. It's probably not a God ordained moment for me just because I don't like, I don't need a human organization to do what God has put in my heart. And it's not saying, Hey, don't have accountability and don't have community. I think God created us for community and the churches and central part of that.

But man, I think it's just that, you know, thoughts aren't true until truth becomes thought. At what, what's the truth that we're all operating from here. So I think for us chart is very much simpler. You know, it's learning how to, instead of, you know, learning how to do church is being the church, being there for others you know, being able to give and, and do some of those things.

And so that's where you find that, you know, the global church is thriving. The two countries where church, as you say, attendance is actually. You know, shrinking is, you know, the [00:35:00] U S and you know, it's parts of Europe. So I think for us, it's really been a much more simpler process. And I think that healing.

Has happened communally. Cause I think there's a community of people who have that awareness. Some people call it, Hey, I'm deconstructing my faith. Some people call it, Hey, like I'm just going back to the basics. But so whatever that journey is for you, I think that's a really core part of healing is like coming back to just the truth of what I believe in and the wholeness of.

Daryl: Yeah, I want to have a positive spin on the student. Right. So I grew up with a really strong faith tradition. I grew up in a family that like you, we were at church every time the doors were open. And so like, I had a really good starting point. It wasn't like I'm having this conversation with you at 41 without any background, you know, any education in scripture, like, you know, that kind of stuff.

And I don't talk about this often, but like, man, I'm pretty well versed in the scripture [00:36:00] because of my dad, because of my grandfather. Right. Because of the background that I came from. And so I think what that gave me was this really good foundation for in the last two years, when I said, Hey, I'm willing to go back and relook at some of the stuff that was quote unquote, a fact and see with new eyes, but then you learn so much, right?

You learn so many beautiful, new nuanced things that then you add to it and build on. I told a friend of mine. I think part of me in the beginning of all this one on a, to go back and find the answers and then point my finger at people. Yeah. What's been funny is, is I went back and I found new answers that have just created new questions and I just feel joyful about it.

I don't feel angry about it. Right. Like I feel like, wow. Like I literally feel like, wow, about so many things in the scriptures now. As opposed to what I thought I was going to feel, it was almost like my way of finding revenge. Yeah. Yeah. I'm [00:37:00] like, aha. You know, told you so, but instead I found like this beautiful joy and I wish everybody could go on this journey with us.

And what's been really cool. Is that some of the paths that we've been down in the last two years, I am now hearing feedback from friends around. That are like, Hey, I just found this out or, Hey, I just discovered this or, Hey, I just listened to this thing and to see their joy and like their, their hearts just like coming alive.

It's like, wow, man. I'm so, I'm so glad that I got to kind of either be a catalyst for that for you, or like turn you on to that, or, you know, inspire or just be a part of life with you as you went through that. I knowing we were coming into this podcast, I had studied quite a bit about the shrinking of the evangelical church.

And that term itself is the part that has really been changing and some of the latest studies, and it is people [00:38:00] that no longer want to apply that label to themselves is one of the big ones. You know, where people are saying like, Hey, I'm still a believer and who God is, but I'm not willing to attach to this group and their behavior.

And I think, man, that is probably the most significant change in addition to the fact that yes, it's, it's shrinking and changing in the two areas that you described earlier in the UK, specifically in the Southeast. But one of those big reasons is because it's a group of people that have consistently said, I have the answer, I have the answer you don't.

And in the words of Rob bell, right? Like he views faith as a trampoline. Where it's like, Hey, come jump with me. Yeah. Right. Like jump with me. It'd be a part like, again, it's not a square box with sharp edges. And so I went, I went on Amazon and I just, and I just searched. What are the most gifted Christian books?

I really wanted to know, like, what are the most, hear this, especially coming out of a season where we were [00:39:00] gifted a lot of books, you know, from ,

Adrian: if you're listening, send Daryl Amy Joel's thing,

Daryl: and it will go directly in the box to Goodwill. Thank you. But I promise you of the 25 top listings, all of them were children's books.

Or books on money. And I think that tells you what you need to know about the American view on faith and Christianity sometimes. Yeah. Right? Like it's either a children's book or it's prosperity. And then that kind of like summed it all up for me. And so I don't think either of those things are where I'm at today.

I don't know about you, but. It's not the old Testament is not a children's book, even though we do teach it to Ella and Easton. Right. It's not children's book. And also Jesus's teachings are not about prosperity, [00:40:00] right? Are their behaviors. Yeah, exactly. Are there truths in the way that God wired the world?

They're absolutely. But like, it is not about prosperity. So anyway, I just found that to be like a funny nuance. Yeah,

Adrian: that's good. That's good. Oh, I love it, Reverend. So what is your

Daryl: Calfee and what have you read in the season to help get your faith through this?

Adrian: Wow. A book that rocked me and I probably mentioned it on this podcast before.

It's a irresistible by Andy. And I've had it before for me I'm as guilty, you know, I use books as references. Right. So part of it is like, Hey, I'm working on a point of view or opinion, or I'm just curious. But yeah, I gotta be honest. I probably would do what you described before, where the, Hey, I need an answer for something, so, Hey, here's the answer.

Now I, back this knowledge, my knowledge becomes this. To like B Q into compliance because, Hey, I can, I can verbalize this opinion. Of course, God has given me this wisdom. So now you should disagree with me. Right. Man is such a beautiful book of just like breaking [00:41:00] down, like, you know, So many people, you know, walked away from our faith because of an inconsistency in the Bible or a contradiction.

So true. Well, no, like, you know, like my birth certificate, I think it's, you know, burned in a fire. Do I stop existing? No, like I am the very proof that I exist. Right. And so just thinking through like the foundations of like, and what do you believe and why, and, you know, I think the admission. Most of my faith.

Right. Especially if you've been born in church or born, like about like, well, we have churches oftentimes have been like optimized for doing. Birthing and baptizing people who are already part of Christian families. And how do we turn that outward to like being faith in our community, being faith in our companies and our organizations.

And that's where, you know, most, you know, communities are really lacking. Like people are looking for Jesus. People are looking for answers. And then when you turn on your [00:42:00] TV or Twitter, you don't see it there. Right. And so I think for me, you know, irresistible, it was just a great, almost like a double-down on just, and it's very well researched.

Right. So I, I recommend him to buy, like, get in there, you know, and, you know, learn why you believe what you believe, but then, Hey, what does that mean? And the answer is always. Jesus was fully loved and fully truth. He didn't ever negotiate or compromise one for the other. He was a hundred percent both. And I, yeah, I think for me in this season, it really is like trusting him more means like, you know, just like letting some things go, but you know, also, you know, it reminds me of you know, Jesus at the end of, you know, each gospel, you know, he, he appears to his disciples.

But there are times when he appear, he hides his appearance. Right. So he's walking down the road. They don't know it's him. So the disciples are, you know, in every instance he has to remind his followers. Hey, remember what I said? Remember like, even the people who were closest to [00:43:00] him, but God who he was right after he died, like, oh yeah, this didn't work.

I'm going back to fishing. Like, yeah, it all failed. Right. And I do that. I'm like, yeah, this thing didn't work. It failed. And Jesus comes back to me and just says, remember what I told you like, and he reveals himself, not, you know, in this great moment, but in this every day, like it's an invitation to just be with him.

So that's for me, man. It just going back to the basics and getting away from some of the hierarchy and the policies and some of the things that had clouded, I think a lot of the view of.

Daryl: Well, I've got to be careful here because I was told, and this is a quote that questioning my faith could be dangerous because of my influence.

Oh, so yeah. Yeah, that was the question. Oh yeah. Yeah. That was a quote, right? Don't question it. But some of the things that have really helped me in this season where I'm a visual learner, right. [00:44:00] So I think the Dallas Jenkins did an amazing job with the chosen. If you haven't got to see the chosen yet, season one now in the season two.

Man, hands down. One of the best representations of Christ visually I've ever seen. It's crowdfunded project. I think don't get me. Don't quote me on this, but I think it's probably one of the most successful crowdfund. Visual projects ever completed. Like it's amazing. So that has been really good for me.

I've continued with the divine conspiracy by Dallas Willard. That book is thick and rich and it takes time to kind of like move through it. But that book has been so good unfettered by Mandy. It's about refinding a childlike faith and kind of like an unhitching yourself from like this Western mindset, because we forget right.

That like Jesus and his teaching. And all of the old Testament were, were written to an Eastern mindset, right. They, they basically were teaching you [00:45:00] how to question things and learn as opposed to giving you the answer, which is a Western mindset. Right. And so like coming back to that gives us a childlike faith.

Again, I thought that that was really beautiful. I've talked about this before a lot, but Bama and the teachings of Margaret Solomon who have really. Helpful and beautiful in this season. Pete has a podcast called the Bible for normal people. It is really good now, you know, Pete is satirically funny and dry, and I think you need to know that going into it.

So don't like jump into the Bible for normal people thinking like he's being a hundred percent serious. Like a lot of times he's being sarcastic and funny, but you'll understand once you start listening and it has been beautiful. He's really, really smart. It's been beautiful. And then the Bible project, like Tim and John had done such a good job visually again, I'm a visual learner with the Bible project that it's been something I've been able to share with our kids.

We've watched that a lot on Sundays and help them kind of like go through some of those things that [00:46:00] aren't easy conversations, especially as a parent, you're like, I don't know the answer to that. Right. So I've learned a lot from them. But yeah, those have been some of the tools for me in these last two years that I've really enjoyed.

That's really good.

Adrian: Yeah. That's helpful. We'll include those in the show notes, because I think that'll be a great link to share and only as a resource, but, you know, just kind of like an easy share for other people who, you know, use a portable, you know, kind of reference for somebody that has this questions.

And I love what you said, like not shying away from those conversations. You know, me and my wife, she's going to kill me for like, bringing this up right. You know, and basically you grew up basically black church, right? You don't, I mean, you know, the preacher, the Bishop is the answer and you don't question, right.

The Bible said, and that's it. Right. And I think, you know, there's simple things about, Hey, let's talk about science and the creation story evolution that happened. Let's talk about some of these topics were worried down. I was coming from, you know, and it's kinda like, Hey, there's, there's, there's answers to all those things, but.

I think sometimes we can have this fear, [00:47:00] this anxiety that, Hey, if I questioned this, I'm questioning my faith. Yeah. He's he wants you to do that. Like that is okay. So I think part of, you know, the faith journey and the healing journey is asking questions because unless you can, unless you can get beneath the surface and diagnose what it is, you'll never be able to recover or restore it.

So I, I love the way you're thinking.

Daryl: What is Jesus specifically your faith in him, like asking you to do more of right now? Oh, I'm about

Adrian: to say probably goes back to work, working like Jesus, and I think. For so long for me. Right. I get busy at work and I minimize serving. Right. So I've got stuff to do proposal presentation right now.

I'm, I'm writing, I'm advising you know, doing some mentorship. So I get so busy at work. I minimize service. [00:48:00] She's this. Story his biography, right? Like he gets so busy serving that he maximizes his work. Like it's just a part of who he is. And so for me, like, I think there's kind of this, it's an invitation, right?

It's not a, it's not a force. It's not, you know, I'm not being you know, it's not a dry. It's really like here's the invitation and it is be with me and like work like me. And it's a, it's a slower pace for me at least. It's a pace where I don't get all the answers when I get just enough done productivity is measured and kinda my attitude and our spirit and kind of mental state more than.

How much stuff, you know, literally it gets done. So yeah, I think there's this trust fall that happens because for 20 years, I mean, I've, I've worked, you know, worked my way and never has more effort, more hours, more energy ever led to better outcomes past a certain [00:49:00] point of working. Yeah. I'm just spinning my wheels.

If I'm honest, I I'm doing it just to cover my butt or to like appease somebody who has a pet project. It's never, you know, it's never earned more and every single opportunity has been, you know, God like opening a door and showing me that man, like, there's this way of striving. And then there's this way of trusting.

And I think it's the invitation to trust by like, it's okay. Being busy, but be busy doing the right thing. And I think he's just totally press reset. Control alt delete, reset. Reset on. Everything. I thought I valued and, you know, just showing me, you know, this to trust. So it's a very uncomfortable position, but I'm thankful for it.

Daryl: I think for you, it's a way more sustainable way of life. You are running so hard for so long and checking all the boxes because it's what you had to do, you know, emailing it middle of the night, you know, responding to [00:50:00] tweets in the middle of the night, right? Like building decks that we're never going to see the.


Adrian: I get stresses. You just saying that like makes me stress. That was me. Oh yeah, you're right.

Daryl: But the truth is, and you know, this better than anybody. So I'm preaching to the choir there really only three to four hours in a day that you're at your absolute best. Yeah. Right. So use those to be your best.

And then be who you need to be for your family after that, man. And I think this is gonna be a great experiment for you in this season, but when I hear you, he's just saying like, Hey rest right now. Yeah. You're not, you're not valued for who you are. You're valued for who you are. Not what you do. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. You're valued for who you are and not what you do. Simple, right? Yeah.

Adrian: Yeah. That's good. That's good stuff, dude. Yeah,

Daryl: man.

Adrian: I'm excited about this episode. We'll include links [00:51:00] and show notes to some of the resources and, you know, You know, any questions on healing and wholeness and things, especially, you know, gossip. We don't talk about any of this stuff. A lot we're happy to help and share more. So look out for future episodes.

Daryl: That's right. Love you, buddy. Talk to you soon, man. Have a good one, dude.

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